Paul Allen & Paul Williams
DR: The Alluvians from what I have
been hearing are an important part of the LBGTQIA+ community in Castlemaine, can
you tell me how The Alluvians came about and your involvement in it?
PW: I was involved with the original Alluvian group. It started off as a dinner party or barbeque thing. I think we started with about eight of us, and then someone would invite someone else to come along, and then someone else to come along. Then someone would say, Let’s go out for a picnic somewhere, and we’d wind up at Mount Alexander, and then other people got invited and it just sort of got bigger.
We just kept calling it ‘the group’ all the time so we thought we must have a name for it, because it sounded stupid when people didn't know what we were talking about. And then at one barbeque picnic at the mine we said we've got to find a name, so everyone put ideas together and we did a vote. It came up with the ‘Sisters of Alluvian’ which was I think a 49 to 51 vote – the 49 hated the name, but it got through! And that's what we stuck with for ages and ages. Then we decided, well, that was just too old-fashioned. It was sort of like Friends of Dorothy and the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence so we thought it was about time we brought it up to date. Then we said why don't we just cut off the beginning and just call it ‘The Alluvians’. When they hear it, people know who we're talking about straight away. A lot of people don't understand what it means but we're getting the name out there.
DR: It sounds like it became quite a big group fairly quickly.
PA: It started around 10 or 12 years ago. It's ebbed and flowed. There's still quite a core of the guys that started at the beginning. We don't see as much of them now because they're starting to get old so they're not as active.
PW: And quite a few of them have passed away, actually. And then of course COVID came along. With the help of Paul, I’ve basically kept it going through that period.
PA: We just couldn't do much. We couldn't do any functions. Even doing our regular walks was a challenge because you weren't really allowed. We weren't locked down, but we weren't allowed to walk in groups and all this sort of stuff. So, we'd meet clandestinely in the middle of the bush somewhere with two other friends and split up. But it survived.
PW: I don't think it was a conscious decision to make it a formal group. It just evolved. Someone organised a bus trip to one of the wineries. It was a mixed crowd there were straight people on it as well. But we had the idea that we could do other things other than just be at people's houses for barbeques.
And then when it got to a size, some people started thinking, well, there's people arriving at my house, and I don't know who they are. They've come as friends of friends and of course sometimes those friends might arrive before the people you know. So, there's these new people walking in and you're thinking, do I confront them and say, who are you, what are you doing here? So, I think a lot of them stopped wanting to have things at home. We might have had barbeques where people were outside, but they didn't want people inside their house that they didn't know.
PA: It was always ‘bring a plate’. We’ll supply the barbie or the area or whatever and people would just bring food and that's sort of like a tradition that still to this day happens. But people do still turn up. But usually people will say, I think I've got some friends up from Melbourne or something, would you mind if they came along?
PW: And quite often those people then actually ask to be a member of the group.
DR: Is there a process by which people become a member of The Alluvians?
PA: We have some guidelines, it's very loose. If you want to be involved in The Alluvians or go to any of their events or whatever, you need to live in the general area. It encompasses Castlemaine, Guildford, Newstead, Daylesford, the Goldfields. Anything outside that you'd say, well why do you want to be a part of the group?
We have a lot of people that say, well we’re in Melbourne currently, but we’ve bought land up here and we're building and we're spending some time up here and we want to get more involved socially … so that's a tick. There's three questions to answer on the Facebook page – Are you local to the area? How did you find out about The Alluvians? and, What would you like to get out of being part of the group? 90 to 95% of the time they say social activities or to meet new people – that sort of thing.
There’s the Facebook page, and we've got an email list which Steven Goldsmith used to administer. So that's come across to me and when we changed The Alluvian's name of course we had to change the email address, so that was all migrated. And we've got a website, The Alluvian's website, which is up and running. I'm learning how to do things in WordPress to add photos and create galleries. Another friend Peter set it all up and did an amazing job, so the website is there as well. And that came about mainly because when people were trying to find the group, and put in gay – men's – social – Castlemaine, in the Google search criteria, nothing would come up. So it would just be through word of mouth that people found it. So we created the domain description so it would pop up. And secondly, we got a listing on the Pride Centre Website as a group. Ian Gould who’s on the Alluvians committee is also on the board of the Pride Centre. He suggested that and wrote the blurb. So, that's how it's come about. It's a lot to administer and there's a lot of overflow between the groups. Some people only use emails, some people only use Facebook, and the website is very user friendly and has lots of information including a diary of events that you can download and put on your phone. You can download it to Outlook and then highlight the events that you want to go to.
PW: The group’s come a long way from the beginning, when it was telephone calls. Over half of us didn’t have an email address. If someone said they were going to organise something, they would ring someone, and then they were supposed to ring five people, and that was the way it got out …
PA: The Bush Telegraph.
PW: Its evolved now, people can go to a calendar on the website – like, oh I know it's on next weekend but what time is it? – without going and asking someone. But we're an older group so a lot of the guys are still technically challenged. They have trouble getting into the website and things like that. You have to have a code to get in so that only members could find out when events were on. Everyone can find out if therewere events but there is no date or place or time on anything unless you are a member.
DR: Is that for safety or just so you get a sense of numbers?
PW: It was for safety. But we now think it would be more beneficial to the group if we actually got rid of the code system and people had easier access to it. And we just take that chance. We've had no problems before.
PA: We’re just concerned about the privacy of members, of people whose photos might appear on some of the galleries. For whatever reason – they may not be out, they just may not want to have their photo published, and they think, well if it's private it's not public facing, it's only other people in the group that would be able to see it anyway. If you open it to the public, that may introduce things like harassment. But it's not up to us now, it's up to the committee to work that out.
DR: What are the events that you organise?
PW: At the last Sunday of every month we have drinks at the Midland Hotel, so that's a monthly thing. And then just about every month we have some social event. We have a curry night, that I organise, at the local Hall here and everyone brings along a curry. Theres a very minimal charge for everyone, just to cover costs of hiring the hall. Pre-COVID we were usually getting around the high 50s turning up. And then we had to cancel that twice because of COVID. 47 turned up at the last one which we thought was quite good. It was in the middle of winter, it was cold, there were still a lot of people who were hesitant about going out into groups. We just had the car rally yesterday, so we are recovering from that.
DR: Is it mostly men that come along or is it mixed?
PA: It's all men. It’s a gay men’s group
PW: It’s a gay men’s social club, but we're open to trans and bisexual men. So, anyone who identifies as being a man.
PA: Yes, but just not straight – so gay men, bi men and trans men are all welcome.
Going back to the car rally. We feel like we've got to change the name of it because a lot of new people think, Oh it’s stupid, you're getting in your car and you're going down dirt roads and doing jumps and all that type of stuff.
PA: At a hundred miles per hour
PW: And It's nothing like that. It's a scavenger hunt in a car. So you're guided along with cryptic clues. You’ve got to collect things on the way and then you end up at an unknown destination having a picnic.
PW: Yesterday we had a trivia as well. We add all the things that they've collected and questions they had along the trip. We had nine cars yesterday, and about 27 people including people that just came for the picnic at the end.
PA: It’s really successful, it’s a good one
PW: It is. It's a lot of work and it costs a bit of money in petrol because I have to do the run quite a few times. So next year I'm going to put it into the Castlemaine Pride events. It'll be open to everyone, anyone at all that wants to come along.
DR: How would you describe the LGBTQIA+ community in Castlemaine and the area?
PA: It's reasonably cohesive. There's been a couple of things lately that have brought particularly the gay men and lesbians closer together or in a situation where you communicate more and get involved in things. One of them is the Castlemaine Pride Choir. And the other one was a social function called Queer Mix. Peter organised a hotel and leveraged off various people's social media stuff to get it around. The idea was to invite any members of the LGBTQIA+ community along. You would sit with different people.
PW: You wouldn't sit with your partner
PA: Of course, if you were a bit shy or a bit worried, you could say, I don't mind sitting with new people, but I want my partner to be there. A lot of work went into that first one at Five Flags in Campbells Creek. It was very successful.
I think the main thing for us is probably the Pride Choir because it's so mixed, and this is how we met the girls that come camping with us, as well. And there's a younger demographic, so we're getting to chat with queers that are a fair bit younger than us and we learn from them as they do us.
PA: I've been interviewed once on the local Gay Radio program.
DR: Oh, Queer and Now?
PA: Yeah, Paul and I were invited to go along and talk about The Alluvians. Amalia, who's one of the hosts was between us doing the interview. While songs were on she admitted to us that when she first arrived at the choir there were all these mature men there. She said, I actually felt quite scared.
PA: Yeah, we’re very intimidating.
PW: Very intimidating … that's what her impressions were.
DR: I can understand that.
PW: But then she realised that these people are no different to anyone else in the room because nearly everyone was from The Alluvians. People like myself who have never … the last time I sang in a choir was when I was in school. So it was an opportunity for people to do that.
PA: In her role at Community House as the LGBTQIA+ officer, Sherene Clow is doing an amazing job, so we try and support her wherever we can. If something is happening, you can leverage off your group and put something on your Facebook page. From her hard work, it's opened everything up a little bit more, like the Yellow Brick Road drinks that they do once a month as well at the Theatre Royal. She got quite a good mix of people.
It's very hit and miss – it's just hard to predict really. There's not a lot of stuff where all the groups can mix apart from the Pride events and things like Queer Mix. We have quite a large trans community here as well but they're not as visible as I suppose we'd like them to be. It'd be nice for them to be a little bit more involved in the community. And so, things like the Queer Mix are very concerned with being able to go out and have a safe place. Often they'll avoid pubs and things like that – I think that's why we didn't get any trans people at the Five Flags. It's sort of a bit, not rough, but it's just a pub.
PW: At the Theater Royal, there was a couple of instances where straight people walked in and made comments to some of the trans people and they never came back.
PA: So, it just didn't feel safe
DR: What is the attitude of the straight population here towards the LGBTQIA+ community?
PW: Well, we had the highest percentage of ‘yes’ votes for marriage equality in the region. And the first Pride was put together as a thank you to all those people.
PA: I've never experienced any homophobia, not to my face. I think generally most people in town are just sort of live and let live. It's a very diverse community because there's a lot of artists and musicians and people who are creative, as well as retirees. Of these three blocks sold at the same time we bought this one, next door are Stewart and Tamsin with their daughter, who are really gay friendly – it's just like it doesn't exist – and above them is Ali and Sharon and they're a lesbian couple. So we've got a little community here just in this street. It’s really good like that.
PW: One little story I can tell you – I don't know how long Paul and I had been together, it must have only been a few months ...
PA: It mustn’t have been too long.
PW: A few months, yeah, and we were in the supermarket. I don’t know, was it a Saturday morning?
PA: I don’t know, it was just a day.
PW: And then Paul had to go off and do something so we went up to each other while we’re actually in the supermarket and we gave each other a big kiss goodbye. I was looking over Paul’s shoulder as we were doing it. And there was this young girl, and this great big smile came on her face. We both said we felt so goodafterwards. You know, we felt comfortable in Castlemaine to do that with neither of us looking around to see who was watching or anything like that. It’s something we just did naturally and felt comfortable with. We do it all the time now. We wouldn’t think about it.
DR: That’s fantastic
PW: Whereas we would probably think twice about it if we were in the city. But here in Castlemaine I don't think we ever would.
PA: Occasionally you see guys holding hands, but It's usually the women that hold hands. I don't know what that's about. I think it's just that it feels so foreign in a way because it's just something that you were never brought up to do or think about. Whereas if I was at Oxford Street or at a big gay function, of course, that's when we do. If we march in any Parades or anything like that, we hold hands.
DR: Are there many younger gay men who come along to the Alluvian events?
PA: It's a good question because I think part of the name change was to make the group more relevant to younger guys – for it not to just sound like a bunch of old Queens sitting around having tea – chandeliers and things like that.
PW: Which it sort of was in the beginning. People used to turn up at picnics with their tables and their candelabras and all that type of stuff. It was all sort of tongue in cheek stuff – a bit camp. But that's all gone, well and truly gone.
PA: Two of the boys that were there yesterday at the rally live in Irishtown. They're only in their 30s. Sometimes you'll only get people coming to certain events, and then you will never see them any other time in the year. But we see them outside the group, and we'll catch up when we can. They're probably the youngest.
I mean, you see younger guys around. If they're couples, chances are they probably don't live up here, unless they've got a business or they're working remotely all the time. They'd still be coming up from Melbourne, and it's probably just the demographic that by the time you’re in your mid-forties, you're thinking, oh well, I'm established, and I might buy some land up in the country and build a house. And they come up for weekends. I think in a lot of cases with young couples, they come up to get away. They're not looking for a social life outside. They move up here to be on a farm or something.
PW: This is the thing we don't know – whether there are any guys who were born and raised here that have come out and are comfortable.
PA: It's sort of impossible to find out because if there are, they're probably a younger demographic who just hang out with their friends. It's not such a thing now. See we used to seek out like-minded people when we were coming out, and coming to terms with your sexuality because it was such a taboo. You'd find your little tribe, and you’d go, oh this is amazing there are other people like me. But younger people now are just sort of like, well it is what it is, and my friends consist of a lot of different blends, it's not an issue. So, they don't feel like they need to find someone the same as them for validation. I think that's probably one of the reasons why we wouldn't see any young guys in their 20s and 30s.
PW: You don't know whether a single guy walking down the street is gay unless he is really obvious. Young couples are more obvious. But do they socialise or do they just keep to themselves? We don't really know.
PW: None of our group are born and raised in Castlemaine.
PA: Peter Critchly is probably the only one, the guy that created the website originally. He was born and raised in Elphinstone. I think he just turned 60.
DR: So, what does being involved in The Alluvians provide for you personally?
PA: For me, because Paul has been so involved, I always said to him, I like the group and I'd like to be involved, but I'm just going to stay on the peripherals and come to things. But over time you start to get a little bit more involved and help out. We rely on volunteers to do stuff. The committee is all volunteers. Paul used to do a lot but he's stepped back and left the committee. He just committed to do the car rally and the curry night, and then anything else he'll just do as a volunteer. There was a period there when it got a bit intense with COVID and all that. You'd work on stuff and you'd go – great it looks like it's going to fly. And then we’d get locked down.
PW: And sometimes we'd get less than 12 hours notice and we’d cancel. Once we decorated the whole hall for the curry night, and that night we were told we had to be in lockdown the next morning. And we had to go back the next morning and dismantle it all, because it was in a football club hall so we couldn't leave it. That was very distressing.
PA: Personally what I get out of it, I suppose, is that feeling of belonging and having a group of people that are like-minded and enjoy doing things. I think that it's that social aspect.
PW: It's also a way of meeting new people. Someone with a different outlook on life maybe. Because I've been involved with it for so long now. I think it'd be hard for me to walk away from it. I couldn't totally walk away from it. We’ve made so many friends.
PW: We go to anything.
DR: Yeah, it sounds like you have quite a busy social calendar.
PW: Oh, we do. But sometimes, you think, Thank god, nothing on this week, great!
PA: It's not just The Alluvians but being in the choir is another way of getting out and socialising and interacting with other people. And then there's times when we just want to stay in and really not do too much at all. But that only lasts for a couple of days. Because you look around, you go, oh that needs doing, and we’ve still got to do that, and I didn’t do that.
DR: Do you socialise much with straight people?
PW: No. I've basically lost contact with all my straight friends and gay friends in Melbourne, to be honest, for different reasons. After a while you think why are we friends? The reason we were originally friends is probably not there anymore. Geography always makes a difference. I was very friendly with all my neighbors at Sutton Grange when we lived out there, and that was very social. Ian and I were the only gays in the village there, we were the glue that kept everyone together. I’m still in contact with those people – straight people, and their families.
PA: Occasionally we say we must catch up and they'll come over here for a coffee or go for dinner. But as far as having a core group of straight people, we don't really know any.
PW: No. There's no reason why it happened. It's just that we have enough social life. Other than neighbors we probably don't mix with any straight people really.
PA: There's a lot of allies in Castlemaine who are really into the community and help out. Marion Yates is one of them and she organises a thing called Pub Sing at the Taproom. They pick a song and they've got two women and a guy who plays guitar and they teach you how to sing the song and then at the end you sing it or record it.
PW: And of course, you drink as well and that makes it even funnier.
PA: It’s a very uplifting fun evening. And it’s very mixed.
PW: You don't have to be able to sing because it's so loud. You just go along, and no one can hear your individual singing.
PA: But it's just a great mix of people who come together and enjoy singing.
PW: And the majority of them are straight people and we've gone along as a group sometimes.
PA: They did a special one for Pride. We did a George Michael song and they invited the choir along to do some songs. The people that own the pub are really good allies, they are very supportive. Most businesses around town are pretty ok with it.
PW: The other day someone said, oh they had a rainbow flag sticker on the front of some business, and I said, that's unusual these days. Mostly, those stickers have gone. They don't have to advertise that they’re gay friendly anymore because everyone assumes they are. It would be the opposite if someone put in an anti-gay flag. That would be totally different. But I don't think people look for the rainbow flag anymore. I think people think that's the norm now. You don't need to advertise it to be gay friendly.
PA: If there's something like Pride or an event that there's a flyer for, Sherene will go around and ask shopkeepers to put them in their windows. I think it's a comfortable place to be, as a gay man, because you can just get on and live your life. Everyone just doesn't care.
DR: Do you think the LGBTQIA+ community here has changed much over the past 5 years?
PA: Ah, yes. I think that certain aspects have changed. Trans people are a lot more visible. There's more stuff going on with them, and I think it's brought them to the forefront. Good and bad, because they're copping a lot of undue shit, like during the last election. But at the same time the more they're out there, the better for education.
PW: We all belong to one tribe, rather than individual tribes that never, you know, went over to each other's territory. That mingling is happening more.
PA: Look I think the advent of Castlemaine Pride, and people who are much younger, like Sherene with her connections, has really made the path a lot easier for a lot of people, certainly, from a community perspective, in the last 3 or 4 years. She and Martyn do a really good job working for the community and getting things out there.
PW: They need volunteers. Volunteers is their biggest hassle.
PA: And now they've got a reasonable committee and we've got one of our guys, Ian Gould, on the Castlemaine Pride Committee.
PW: He's on lots of boards.
PA: Yeah. And he has lots of experience because he was on the AIDS Council and his experience writing proposals and application funding and all that stuff is really good. So, this is sort of where they're at now. There's money to be had and they’ve worked out how to tap into it now. And so, they can apply for certain funding and get things up and running.
DR: Can I ask you about your personal story? How you two got together?
PA: The first day that I met Paul was at that barbeque at David and Allen’s two days after I moved up here. It was an Alluvians event, wasn't it?
PW: It was probably one of the last times that someone had an open event at their home I think.
PA: So it was March. About 7 years ago. Paul had lost his partner only about maybe 6 or 7 months before. I didn't know that at the time. We just sort of sat and chatted for a lot of the day.
PW: I tried to socialise with other people, but you kept following me. He says it's the other way around! I remember we were both sitting there eating our barbeque on the seat together, and we both had exactly the same blue phone cover on our phones, and we were both called Paul. And then Paul said, oh let me take your plate, and I'm thinking, oh this is getting good, he's actually asked to take my plate.
PA: When you're invited to somewhere for the first time and you don't know anybody you sort of want to try and …
PW: … be on your best manners.
PA: Yeah, yeah. That didn’t last long. But at the time it was good
PW: And then I invited you to a function out at Sutton Grange. It wasn't an Alluvian thing but most of the people there would have been from the Alluvians.
PW: Traditionally I always did something over Easter, either the Good Friday or the Sunday. And so I invited you. And he turned up …
PA: On my motorbike.
PW: No, you arrived in your car, and I had a friend staying over with me and then Paul said, I've got to go home and feed my pussies. And I said, oh yeah, I've heard that one before, thinking ... oh, OK.
PA: I don't think I ever said ‘pussies’, I think I said cats.
PW: I thought, he's not going to come back. And the next minute this motorbike comes roaring up my driveway. And I'm thinking, who the hell is this? And it was him coming back.
DR: You decided to bring your motorbike.
PA: Yes, yeah. Just to show it off.
PW: When he had the bike he kept saying to me, oh I've got to get you a helmet. But I was thinking, no, I don't want to be a bikie’s mole, I don’t want to be sitting on the back of a motorbike.
PA: But I enjoyed it, there's some great rides around here. There's something really great about hopping on your bike and just going for a ride for a few hours. And just getting lost, and enjoying the feeling.
DR: And what happened after you met?
PA: We swapped numbers, and that night everyone was leaving and Don Gray, who's no longer with us, who was a very good friend of Paul's and Ian's, was staying the night, he was the sort of unofficial chaperone.
PW: He wouldn't go to bed and that was so unusual for him not to go to bed. He was being protective because I had been in a 35-year relationship and it was 6 months down the track. A lot of my friends admitted afterwards that they were really worried that I was getting into a relationship so soon. Neither of us was actually looking to get into a relationship. It just happened.
PA: Yeah, and at the time we were both very conscious that Paul was still going through a grieving process and the last thing he wanted was another complication. So, I just said to him, let's just enjoy each other's company, we’ll take it one day at a time, you've still got a lot of stuff to work through. I've just moved up here, I just want to enjoy my new place and meeting new friends, and spending time with you is fantastic. And that was a real value add for me. It was like this light bulb moment, It just evolved, didn't it?
PW: And of course, both of us already had things planned in our life. You were going to Sunshine Beach. And you realised that I'm not a beach person, with my Celtic complexion. I burn very easily. But eventually we went, and we had our first thing. I'd always wanted to go to Canada. So, we booked a trip to Canada together.
PA: But at the time, Paul had a little dog called Russ he was a Jack Russell. And of course, I had the two cats. So, we didn't move in together until after Russ had passed away which is coming up to 3 years. Because cats and Jack Russells don't get on.
PW: They used to fight between the glass. He'd be on the outside, they'd be on the inside.
PA: So, we’d alternate between each other's houses every second night or whatever. And then we lost Russ and we saw this block and we bought it. So, I thought, alright this is a commitment.
DR: Are you married?
PW: No. We've had our engagement canceled twice because of COVID. We sort of think now that we might as well wait for the 10-year anniversary which will be in two and half years’ time.
PW: We both decided that I couldn't live in Paul's house because it was too small, and Paul didn’t want to live in my house because it was on an estate. So, we decided the best thing to do is just build one ourselves that would suit both of us.
DR: Why did you decide to get married?
PA: Once the equality thing happened, and people could do it legally, I think it was such a liberating thing to do, people couldn't wait. We went to like half a dozen weddings over about six or eight months, it was crazy. And then we thought well we would turn the engagement into a wedding. I think it's mainly the peace of mind thing for me.
PW: The next of kin thing.
PA: And the legal aspect …
PW: … of going to the hospital to visit and knowing family can't stop you, and that type of thing. I know these days they can’t, but you still might have to go through all that procedure of getting in to see your own partner.
PA: I think that's a big thing. Through the whole AIDS crisis, having friends that died, you heard stories about families not allowing their partners access to see them while they were dying. They had no legal leg to stand on basically and that always got to me. Even though my family wouldn't do that.
PW: No, nor would mine.
PA: But it's always in the back of your mind. I know you can still have power of attorney and power of medical attorney without being married. But it's just that the spousal thing just – it ties it off. It does. It just gives the right legally. If I was to, say, go through assisted dying, and they didn't believe in it, there's nothing they could do about it. So, I think the wedding’s not urgent, we'll get there.
DR: I imagine there's a celebratory aspect as well.
PA: Well, that's right. Yeah, a wedding is a huge celebration. And it gets to the point you start looking at who you're going to invite and how you're going to do it and …
PW: The list is getting shorter and shorter now, isn’t it?
PA: Yeah, I just think the small intimate ones are great. You just get the legal side of it done with less fuss and then have a party. But with the wedding thing we're in no hurry. I think we'll know when it's right.
DR: Do you feel proud of organising and founding the Alluvians? Because of what it provides to the LGBTQIA+ community here?
PW: I guess so, I've never really thought about it really.
PA: It's a bit unique.
PW: I get a lot out of it. I just like to do things and see people enjoying themselves. Like the car rally, the amount of effort I have to put in for that. But everyone really enjoys it, and they've all left messages. So, I get something out of that as well. It's not all one way and I've always liked entertaining.
PA: If it was a chore you wouldn't do it.
PW: No. it's like gardening. People say how can we spend so much time? It’s because I like it. You obviously think of it as a chore but I think of it was as a hobby. And I think Alluvians was the same thing.
PA: But it got to the point where he was doing everything.
PW: Yes. There was no one to ask to help. So, I just made the decisions and organised everything.
PA: We finally got a committee together and worked on it for a while and then I said, it's time for me to step back. It just became too consuming as the group grows …
PW: And there was a bit of upheaval going on in the group that had never happened before. There was conflict of personalities and it almost broke the group up completely. There are still groups that don't mingle because of it. It wasn't pleasant at the time, I would go to bed thinking about it, and wake up thinking about it. It was very hard. Decisions had to be made about sending warning letters to people. And I thought this is not what I want in the group. I don't want to make these types of decisions. I decided I had to go. So then I tried to get a committee together. Some people only lasted a couple of meetings and didn't come back. But there was a core of about 6. I thought, I've got to get out of decision-making. I just want to run the events and I'm quite happy to do them on my own with help from other people, but I just wanted out of all that. I'm so happy now that I don't have to think about it.
PA: There are other capable people around doing it, but while you do the stuff no one else is going to step up. So Paul had to just make a decision to step away and let other people organise it, and it will either sink or swim. They're the sorts of things that you eventually have to deal with as groups get bigger. It was inevitable that there'd be some sort of clash of personalities or something. Because it's a group that has group rules, people that don't abide by those rules shouldn't really be in the group. It's very simple. It's just being respectful, no bullying, just accepting people for who they are.
The thing is it is a unique group. I don't think I've ever heard or come across anything like it. There are other groups that are mixed throughout Victoria and Australia, but they're mainly traveling groups that do some socialising.
DR: What would you say are the distinguishing features about The Alluvians?
PA: I think it's just the ability to be able to invite people into the group and be very accepting and open. The great thing about the group is that we're there to also support others if they're having a hard time, for whatever reason mentally or physically.
PW: Someone could lose a partner.
PA: Something like that. And financially. But I think it's mainly just to, hopefully, make people feel welcome. And feel that they can just be relaxed and get involved in things.
PW: It’s like a village within a village. Because we are a group, and we know each other, if someone’s sick, there’re a lot of people who can just put up their hand and say, I’ll go and to do the shopping, or, I’ll do this for you. Whereas if they’re on their own … and even if they have a partner, that partner’s got to do everything. This is nothing organised but it just happens, because we all know each other.
PA: Some Fridays, we just put on Facebook ‘fish and chips in the park’. People just go and grab their stuff and we meet in the park.
PW: I was involved with the original Alluvian group. It started off as a dinner party or barbeque thing. I think we started with about eight of us, and then someone would invite someone else to come along, and then someone else to come along. Then someone would say, Let’s go out for a picnic somewhere, and we’d wind up at Mount Alexander, and then other people got invited and it just sort of got bigger.
We just kept calling it ‘the group’ all the time so we thought we must have a name for it, because it sounded stupid when people didn't know what we were talking about. And then at one barbeque picnic at the mine we said we've got to find a name, so everyone put ideas together and we did a vote. It came up with the ‘Sisters of Alluvian’ which was I think a 49 to 51 vote – the 49 hated the name, but it got through! And that's what we stuck with for ages and ages. Then we decided, well, that was just too old-fashioned. It was sort of like Friends of Dorothy and the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence so we thought it was about time we brought it up to date. Then we said why don't we just cut off the beginning and just call it ‘The Alluvians’. When they hear it, people know who we're talking about straight away. A lot of people don't understand what it means but we're getting the name out there.
DR: It sounds like it became quite a big group fairly quickly.
PA: It started around 10 or 12 years ago. It's ebbed and flowed. There's still quite a core of the guys that started at the beginning. We don't see as much of them now because they're starting to get old so they're not as active.
PW: And quite a few of them have passed away, actually. And then of course COVID came along. With the help of Paul, I’ve basically kept it going through that period.
PA: We just couldn't do much. We couldn't do any functions. Even doing our regular walks was a challenge because you weren't really allowed. We weren't locked down, but we weren't allowed to walk in groups and all this sort of stuff. So, we'd meet clandestinely in the middle of the bush somewhere with two other friends and split up. But it survived.
PW: I don't think it was a conscious decision to make it a formal group. It just evolved. Someone organised a bus trip to one of the wineries. It was a mixed crowd there were straight people on it as well. But we had the idea that we could do other things other than just be at people's houses for barbeques.
And then when it got to a size, some people started thinking, well, there's people arriving at my house, and I don't know who they are. They've come as friends of friends and of course sometimes those friends might arrive before the people you know. So, there's these new people walking in and you're thinking, do I confront them and say, who are you, what are you doing here? So, I think a lot of them stopped wanting to have things at home. We might have had barbeques where people were outside, but they didn't want people inside their house that they didn't know.
PA: It was always ‘bring a plate’. We’ll supply the barbie or the area or whatever and people would just bring food and that's sort of like a tradition that still to this day happens. But people do still turn up. But usually people will say, I think I've got some friends up from Melbourne or something, would you mind if they came along?
PW: And quite often those people then actually ask to be a member of the group.
DR: Is there a process by which people become a member of The Alluvians?
PA: We have some guidelines, it's very loose. If you want to be involved in The Alluvians or go to any of their events or whatever, you need to live in the general area. It encompasses Castlemaine, Guildford, Newstead, Daylesford, the Goldfields. Anything outside that you'd say, well why do you want to be a part of the group?
We have a lot of people that say, well we’re in Melbourne currently, but we’ve bought land up here and we're building and we're spending some time up here and we want to get more involved socially … so that's a tick. There's three questions to answer on the Facebook page – Are you local to the area? How did you find out about The Alluvians? and, What would you like to get out of being part of the group? 90 to 95% of the time they say social activities or to meet new people – that sort of thing.
There’s the Facebook page, and we've got an email list which Steven Goldsmith used to administer. So that's come across to me and when we changed The Alluvian's name of course we had to change the email address, so that was all migrated. And we've got a website, The Alluvian's website, which is up and running. I'm learning how to do things in WordPress to add photos and create galleries. Another friend Peter set it all up and did an amazing job, so the website is there as well. And that came about mainly because when people were trying to find the group, and put in gay – men's – social – Castlemaine, in the Google search criteria, nothing would come up. So it would just be through word of mouth that people found it. So we created the domain description so it would pop up. And secondly, we got a listing on the Pride Centre Website as a group. Ian Gould who’s on the Alluvians committee is also on the board of the Pride Centre. He suggested that and wrote the blurb. So, that's how it's come about. It's a lot to administer and there's a lot of overflow between the groups. Some people only use emails, some people only use Facebook, and the website is very user friendly and has lots of information including a diary of events that you can download and put on your phone. You can download it to Outlook and then highlight the events that you want to go to.
PW: The group’s come a long way from the beginning, when it was telephone calls. Over half of us didn’t have an email address. If someone said they were going to organise something, they would ring someone, and then they were supposed to ring five people, and that was the way it got out …
PA: The Bush Telegraph.
PW: Its evolved now, people can go to a calendar on the website – like, oh I know it's on next weekend but what time is it? – without going and asking someone. But we're an older group so a lot of the guys are still technically challenged. They have trouble getting into the website and things like that. You have to have a code to get in so that only members could find out when events were on. Everyone can find out if therewere events but there is no date or place or time on anything unless you are a member.
DR: Is that for safety or just so you get a sense of numbers?
PW: It was for safety. But we now think it would be more beneficial to the group if we actually got rid of the code system and people had easier access to it. And we just take that chance. We've had no problems before.
PA: We’re just concerned about the privacy of members, of people whose photos might appear on some of the galleries. For whatever reason – they may not be out, they just may not want to have their photo published, and they think, well if it's private it's not public facing, it's only other people in the group that would be able to see it anyway. If you open it to the public, that may introduce things like harassment. But it's not up to us now, it's up to the committee to work that out.
DR: What are the events that you organise?
PW: At the last Sunday of every month we have drinks at the Midland Hotel, so that's a monthly thing. And then just about every month we have some social event. We have a curry night, that I organise, at the local Hall here and everyone brings along a curry. Theres a very minimal charge for everyone, just to cover costs of hiring the hall. Pre-COVID we were usually getting around the high 50s turning up. And then we had to cancel that twice because of COVID. 47 turned up at the last one which we thought was quite good. It was in the middle of winter, it was cold, there were still a lot of people who were hesitant about going out into groups. We just had the car rally yesterday, so we are recovering from that.
DR: Is it mostly men that come along or is it mixed?
PA: It's all men. It’s a gay men’s group
PW: It’s a gay men’s social club, but we're open to trans and bisexual men. So, anyone who identifies as being a man.
PA: Yes, but just not straight – so gay men, bi men and trans men are all welcome.
Going back to the car rally. We feel like we've got to change the name of it because a lot of new people think, Oh it’s stupid, you're getting in your car and you're going down dirt roads and doing jumps and all that type of stuff.
PA: At a hundred miles per hour
PW: And It's nothing like that. It's a scavenger hunt in a car. So you're guided along with cryptic clues. You’ve got to collect things on the way and then you end up at an unknown destination having a picnic.
PW: Yesterday we had a trivia as well. We add all the things that they've collected and questions they had along the trip. We had nine cars yesterday, and about 27 people including people that just came for the picnic at the end.
PA: It’s really successful, it’s a good one
PW: It is. It's a lot of work and it costs a bit of money in petrol because I have to do the run quite a few times. So next year I'm going to put it into the Castlemaine Pride events. It'll be open to everyone, anyone at all that wants to come along.
DR: How would you describe the LGBTQIA+ community in Castlemaine and the area?
PA: It's reasonably cohesive. There's been a couple of things lately that have brought particularly the gay men and lesbians closer together or in a situation where you communicate more and get involved in things. One of them is the Castlemaine Pride Choir. And the other one was a social function called Queer Mix. Peter organised a hotel and leveraged off various people's social media stuff to get it around. The idea was to invite any members of the LGBTQIA+ community along. You would sit with different people.
PW: You wouldn't sit with your partner
PA: Of course, if you were a bit shy or a bit worried, you could say, I don't mind sitting with new people, but I want my partner to be there. A lot of work went into that first one at Five Flags in Campbells Creek. It was very successful.
I think the main thing for us is probably the Pride Choir because it's so mixed, and this is how we met the girls that come camping with us, as well. And there's a younger demographic, so we're getting to chat with queers that are a fair bit younger than us and we learn from them as they do us.
PA: I've been interviewed once on the local Gay Radio program.
DR: Oh, Queer and Now?
PA: Yeah, Paul and I were invited to go along and talk about The Alluvians. Amalia, who's one of the hosts was between us doing the interview. While songs were on she admitted to us that when she first arrived at the choir there were all these mature men there. She said, I actually felt quite scared.
PA: Yeah, we’re very intimidating.
PW: Very intimidating … that's what her impressions were.
DR: I can understand that.
PW: But then she realised that these people are no different to anyone else in the room because nearly everyone was from The Alluvians. People like myself who have never … the last time I sang in a choir was when I was in school. So it was an opportunity for people to do that.
PA: In her role at Community House as the LGBTQIA+ officer, Sherene Clow is doing an amazing job, so we try and support her wherever we can. If something is happening, you can leverage off your group and put something on your Facebook page. From her hard work, it's opened everything up a little bit more, like the Yellow Brick Road drinks that they do once a month as well at the Theatre Royal. She got quite a good mix of people.
It's very hit and miss – it's just hard to predict really. There's not a lot of stuff where all the groups can mix apart from the Pride events and things like Queer Mix. We have quite a large trans community here as well but they're not as visible as I suppose we'd like them to be. It'd be nice for them to be a little bit more involved in the community. And so, things like the Queer Mix are very concerned with being able to go out and have a safe place. Often they'll avoid pubs and things like that – I think that's why we didn't get any trans people at the Five Flags. It's sort of a bit, not rough, but it's just a pub.
PW: At the Theater Royal, there was a couple of instances where straight people walked in and made comments to some of the trans people and they never came back.
PA: So, it just didn't feel safe
DR: What is the attitude of the straight population here towards the LGBTQIA+ community?
PW: Well, we had the highest percentage of ‘yes’ votes for marriage equality in the region. And the first Pride was put together as a thank you to all those people.
PA: I've never experienced any homophobia, not to my face. I think generally most people in town are just sort of live and let live. It's a very diverse community because there's a lot of artists and musicians and people who are creative, as well as retirees. Of these three blocks sold at the same time we bought this one, next door are Stewart and Tamsin with their daughter, who are really gay friendly – it's just like it doesn't exist – and above them is Ali and Sharon and they're a lesbian couple. So we've got a little community here just in this street. It’s really good like that.
PW: One little story I can tell you – I don't know how long Paul and I had been together, it must have only been a few months ...
PA: It mustn’t have been too long.
PW: A few months, yeah, and we were in the supermarket. I don’t know, was it a Saturday morning?
PA: I don’t know, it was just a day.
PW: And then Paul had to go off and do something so we went up to each other while we’re actually in the supermarket and we gave each other a big kiss goodbye. I was looking over Paul’s shoulder as we were doing it. And there was this young girl, and this great big smile came on her face. We both said we felt so goodafterwards. You know, we felt comfortable in Castlemaine to do that with neither of us looking around to see who was watching or anything like that. It’s something we just did naturally and felt comfortable with. We do it all the time now. We wouldn’t think about it.
DR: That’s fantastic
PW: Whereas we would probably think twice about it if we were in the city. But here in Castlemaine I don't think we ever would.
PA: Occasionally you see guys holding hands, but It's usually the women that hold hands. I don't know what that's about. I think it's just that it feels so foreign in a way because it's just something that you were never brought up to do or think about. Whereas if I was at Oxford Street or at a big gay function, of course, that's when we do. If we march in any Parades or anything like that, we hold hands.
DR: Are there many younger gay men who come along to the Alluvian events?
PA: It's a good question because I think part of the name change was to make the group more relevant to younger guys – for it not to just sound like a bunch of old Queens sitting around having tea – chandeliers and things like that.
PW: Which it sort of was in the beginning. People used to turn up at picnics with their tables and their candelabras and all that type of stuff. It was all sort of tongue in cheek stuff – a bit camp. But that's all gone, well and truly gone.
PA: Two of the boys that were there yesterday at the rally live in Irishtown. They're only in their 30s. Sometimes you'll only get people coming to certain events, and then you will never see them any other time in the year. But we see them outside the group, and we'll catch up when we can. They're probably the youngest.
I mean, you see younger guys around. If they're couples, chances are they probably don't live up here, unless they've got a business or they're working remotely all the time. They'd still be coming up from Melbourne, and it's probably just the demographic that by the time you’re in your mid-forties, you're thinking, oh well, I'm established, and I might buy some land up in the country and build a house. And they come up for weekends. I think in a lot of cases with young couples, they come up to get away. They're not looking for a social life outside. They move up here to be on a farm or something.
PW: This is the thing we don't know – whether there are any guys who were born and raised here that have come out and are comfortable.
PA: It's sort of impossible to find out because if there are, they're probably a younger demographic who just hang out with their friends. It's not such a thing now. See we used to seek out like-minded people when we were coming out, and coming to terms with your sexuality because it was such a taboo. You'd find your little tribe, and you’d go, oh this is amazing there are other people like me. But younger people now are just sort of like, well it is what it is, and my friends consist of a lot of different blends, it's not an issue. So, they don't feel like they need to find someone the same as them for validation. I think that's probably one of the reasons why we wouldn't see any young guys in their 20s and 30s.
PW: You don't know whether a single guy walking down the street is gay unless he is really obvious. Young couples are more obvious. But do they socialise or do they just keep to themselves? We don't really know.
PW: None of our group are born and raised in Castlemaine.
PA: Peter Critchly is probably the only one, the guy that created the website originally. He was born and raised in Elphinstone. I think he just turned 60.
DR: So, what does being involved in The Alluvians provide for you personally?
PA: For me, because Paul has been so involved, I always said to him, I like the group and I'd like to be involved, but I'm just going to stay on the peripherals and come to things. But over time you start to get a little bit more involved and help out. We rely on volunteers to do stuff. The committee is all volunteers. Paul used to do a lot but he's stepped back and left the committee. He just committed to do the car rally and the curry night, and then anything else he'll just do as a volunteer. There was a period there when it got a bit intense with COVID and all that. You'd work on stuff and you'd go – great it looks like it's going to fly. And then we’d get locked down.
PW: And sometimes we'd get less than 12 hours notice and we’d cancel. Once we decorated the whole hall for the curry night, and that night we were told we had to be in lockdown the next morning. And we had to go back the next morning and dismantle it all, because it was in a football club hall so we couldn't leave it. That was very distressing.
PA: Personally what I get out of it, I suppose, is that feeling of belonging and having a group of people that are like-minded and enjoy doing things. I think that it's that social aspect.
PW: It's also a way of meeting new people. Someone with a different outlook on life maybe. Because I've been involved with it for so long now. I think it'd be hard for me to walk away from it. I couldn't totally walk away from it. We’ve made so many friends.
PW: We go to anything.
DR: Yeah, it sounds like you have quite a busy social calendar.
PW: Oh, we do. But sometimes, you think, Thank god, nothing on this week, great!
PA: It's not just The Alluvians but being in the choir is another way of getting out and socialising and interacting with other people. And then there's times when we just want to stay in and really not do too much at all. But that only lasts for a couple of days. Because you look around, you go, oh that needs doing, and we’ve still got to do that, and I didn’t do that.
DR: Do you socialise much with straight people?
PW: No. I've basically lost contact with all my straight friends and gay friends in Melbourne, to be honest, for different reasons. After a while you think why are we friends? The reason we were originally friends is probably not there anymore. Geography always makes a difference. I was very friendly with all my neighbors at Sutton Grange when we lived out there, and that was very social. Ian and I were the only gays in the village there, we were the glue that kept everyone together. I’m still in contact with those people – straight people, and their families.
PA: Occasionally we say we must catch up and they'll come over here for a coffee or go for dinner. But as far as having a core group of straight people, we don't really know any.
PW: No. There's no reason why it happened. It's just that we have enough social life. Other than neighbors we probably don't mix with any straight people really.
PA: There's a lot of allies in Castlemaine who are really into the community and help out. Marion Yates is one of them and she organises a thing called Pub Sing at the Taproom. They pick a song and they've got two women and a guy who plays guitar and they teach you how to sing the song and then at the end you sing it or record it.
PW: And of course, you drink as well and that makes it even funnier.
PA: It’s a very uplifting fun evening. And it’s very mixed.
PW: You don't have to be able to sing because it's so loud. You just go along, and no one can hear your individual singing.
PA: But it's just a great mix of people who come together and enjoy singing.
PW: And the majority of them are straight people and we've gone along as a group sometimes.
PA: They did a special one for Pride. We did a George Michael song and they invited the choir along to do some songs. The people that own the pub are really good allies, they are very supportive. Most businesses around town are pretty ok with it.
PW: The other day someone said, oh they had a rainbow flag sticker on the front of some business, and I said, that's unusual these days. Mostly, those stickers have gone. They don't have to advertise that they’re gay friendly anymore because everyone assumes they are. It would be the opposite if someone put in an anti-gay flag. That would be totally different. But I don't think people look for the rainbow flag anymore. I think people think that's the norm now. You don't need to advertise it to be gay friendly.
PA: If there's something like Pride or an event that there's a flyer for, Sherene will go around and ask shopkeepers to put them in their windows. I think it's a comfortable place to be, as a gay man, because you can just get on and live your life. Everyone just doesn't care.
DR: Do you think the LGBTQIA+ community here has changed much over the past 5 years?
PA: Ah, yes. I think that certain aspects have changed. Trans people are a lot more visible. There's more stuff going on with them, and I think it's brought them to the forefront. Good and bad, because they're copping a lot of undue shit, like during the last election. But at the same time the more they're out there, the better for education.
PW: We all belong to one tribe, rather than individual tribes that never, you know, went over to each other's territory. That mingling is happening more.
PA: Look I think the advent of Castlemaine Pride, and people who are much younger, like Sherene with her connections, has really made the path a lot easier for a lot of people, certainly, from a community perspective, in the last 3 or 4 years. She and Martyn do a really good job working for the community and getting things out there.
PW: They need volunteers. Volunteers is their biggest hassle.
PA: And now they've got a reasonable committee and we've got one of our guys, Ian Gould, on the Castlemaine Pride Committee.
PW: He's on lots of boards.
PA: Yeah. And he has lots of experience because he was on the AIDS Council and his experience writing proposals and application funding and all that stuff is really good. So, this is sort of where they're at now. There's money to be had and they’ve worked out how to tap into it now. And so, they can apply for certain funding and get things up and running.
DR: Can I ask you about your personal story? How you two got together?
PA: The first day that I met Paul was at that barbeque at David and Allen’s two days after I moved up here. It was an Alluvians event, wasn't it?
PW: It was probably one of the last times that someone had an open event at their home I think.
PA: So it was March. About 7 years ago. Paul had lost his partner only about maybe 6 or 7 months before. I didn't know that at the time. We just sort of sat and chatted for a lot of the day.
PW: I tried to socialise with other people, but you kept following me. He says it's the other way around! I remember we were both sitting there eating our barbeque on the seat together, and we both had exactly the same blue phone cover on our phones, and we were both called Paul. And then Paul said, oh let me take your plate, and I'm thinking, oh this is getting good, he's actually asked to take my plate.
PA: When you're invited to somewhere for the first time and you don't know anybody you sort of want to try and …
PW: … be on your best manners.
PA: Yeah, yeah. That didn’t last long. But at the time it was good
PW: And then I invited you to a function out at Sutton Grange. It wasn't an Alluvian thing but most of the people there would have been from the Alluvians.
PW: Traditionally I always did something over Easter, either the Good Friday or the Sunday. And so I invited you. And he turned up …
PA: On my motorbike.
PW: No, you arrived in your car, and I had a friend staying over with me and then Paul said, I've got to go home and feed my pussies. And I said, oh yeah, I've heard that one before, thinking ... oh, OK.
PA: I don't think I ever said ‘pussies’, I think I said cats.
PW: I thought, he's not going to come back. And the next minute this motorbike comes roaring up my driveway. And I'm thinking, who the hell is this? And it was him coming back.
DR: You decided to bring your motorbike.
PA: Yes, yeah. Just to show it off.
PW: When he had the bike he kept saying to me, oh I've got to get you a helmet. But I was thinking, no, I don't want to be a bikie’s mole, I don’t want to be sitting on the back of a motorbike.
PA: But I enjoyed it, there's some great rides around here. There's something really great about hopping on your bike and just going for a ride for a few hours. And just getting lost, and enjoying the feeling.
DR: And what happened after you met?
PA: We swapped numbers, and that night everyone was leaving and Don Gray, who's no longer with us, who was a very good friend of Paul's and Ian's, was staying the night, he was the sort of unofficial chaperone.
PW: He wouldn't go to bed and that was so unusual for him not to go to bed. He was being protective because I had been in a 35-year relationship and it was 6 months down the track. A lot of my friends admitted afterwards that they were really worried that I was getting into a relationship so soon. Neither of us was actually looking to get into a relationship. It just happened.
PA: Yeah, and at the time we were both very conscious that Paul was still going through a grieving process and the last thing he wanted was another complication. So, I just said to him, let's just enjoy each other's company, we’ll take it one day at a time, you've still got a lot of stuff to work through. I've just moved up here, I just want to enjoy my new place and meeting new friends, and spending time with you is fantastic. And that was a real value add for me. It was like this light bulb moment, It just evolved, didn't it?
PW: And of course, both of us already had things planned in our life. You were going to Sunshine Beach. And you realised that I'm not a beach person, with my Celtic complexion. I burn very easily. But eventually we went, and we had our first thing. I'd always wanted to go to Canada. So, we booked a trip to Canada together.
PA: But at the time, Paul had a little dog called Russ he was a Jack Russell. And of course, I had the two cats. So, we didn't move in together until after Russ had passed away which is coming up to 3 years. Because cats and Jack Russells don't get on.
PW: They used to fight between the glass. He'd be on the outside, they'd be on the inside.
PA: So, we’d alternate between each other's houses every second night or whatever. And then we lost Russ and we saw this block and we bought it. So, I thought, alright this is a commitment.
DR: Are you married?
PW: No. We've had our engagement canceled twice because of COVID. We sort of think now that we might as well wait for the 10-year anniversary which will be in two and half years’ time.
PW: We both decided that I couldn't live in Paul's house because it was too small, and Paul didn’t want to live in my house because it was on an estate. So, we decided the best thing to do is just build one ourselves that would suit both of us.
DR: Why did you decide to get married?
PA: Once the equality thing happened, and people could do it legally, I think it was such a liberating thing to do, people couldn't wait. We went to like half a dozen weddings over about six or eight months, it was crazy. And then we thought well we would turn the engagement into a wedding. I think it's mainly the peace of mind thing for me.
PW: The next of kin thing.
PA: And the legal aspect …
PW: … of going to the hospital to visit and knowing family can't stop you, and that type of thing. I know these days they can’t, but you still might have to go through all that procedure of getting in to see your own partner.
PA: I think that's a big thing. Through the whole AIDS crisis, having friends that died, you heard stories about families not allowing their partners access to see them while they were dying. They had no legal leg to stand on basically and that always got to me. Even though my family wouldn't do that.
PW: No, nor would mine.
PA: But it's always in the back of your mind. I know you can still have power of attorney and power of medical attorney without being married. But it's just that the spousal thing just – it ties it off. It does. It just gives the right legally. If I was to, say, go through assisted dying, and they didn't believe in it, there's nothing they could do about it. So, I think the wedding’s not urgent, we'll get there.
DR: I imagine there's a celebratory aspect as well.
PA: Well, that's right. Yeah, a wedding is a huge celebration. And it gets to the point you start looking at who you're going to invite and how you're going to do it and …
PW: The list is getting shorter and shorter now, isn’t it?
PA: Yeah, I just think the small intimate ones are great. You just get the legal side of it done with less fuss and then have a party. But with the wedding thing we're in no hurry. I think we'll know when it's right.
DR: Do you feel proud of organising and founding the Alluvians? Because of what it provides to the LGBTQIA+ community here?
PW: I guess so, I've never really thought about it really.
PA: It's a bit unique.
PW: I get a lot out of it. I just like to do things and see people enjoying themselves. Like the car rally, the amount of effort I have to put in for that. But everyone really enjoys it, and they've all left messages. So, I get something out of that as well. It's not all one way and I've always liked entertaining.
PA: If it was a chore you wouldn't do it.
PW: No. it's like gardening. People say how can we spend so much time? It’s because I like it. You obviously think of it as a chore but I think of it was as a hobby. And I think Alluvians was the same thing.
PA: But it got to the point where he was doing everything.
PW: Yes. There was no one to ask to help. So, I just made the decisions and organised everything.
PA: We finally got a committee together and worked on it for a while and then I said, it's time for me to step back. It just became too consuming as the group grows …
PW: And there was a bit of upheaval going on in the group that had never happened before. There was conflict of personalities and it almost broke the group up completely. There are still groups that don't mingle because of it. It wasn't pleasant at the time, I would go to bed thinking about it, and wake up thinking about it. It was very hard. Decisions had to be made about sending warning letters to people. And I thought this is not what I want in the group. I don't want to make these types of decisions. I decided I had to go. So then I tried to get a committee together. Some people only lasted a couple of meetings and didn't come back. But there was a core of about 6. I thought, I've got to get out of decision-making. I just want to run the events and I'm quite happy to do them on my own with help from other people, but I just wanted out of all that. I'm so happy now that I don't have to think about it.
PA: There are other capable people around doing it, but while you do the stuff no one else is going to step up. So Paul had to just make a decision to step away and let other people organise it, and it will either sink or swim. They're the sorts of things that you eventually have to deal with as groups get bigger. It was inevitable that there'd be some sort of clash of personalities or something. Because it's a group that has group rules, people that don't abide by those rules shouldn't really be in the group. It's very simple. It's just being respectful, no bullying, just accepting people for who they are.
The thing is it is a unique group. I don't think I've ever heard or come across anything like it. There are other groups that are mixed throughout Victoria and Australia, but they're mainly traveling groups that do some socialising.
DR: What would you say are the distinguishing features about The Alluvians?
PA: I think it's just the ability to be able to invite people into the group and be very accepting and open. The great thing about the group is that we're there to also support others if they're having a hard time, for whatever reason mentally or physically.
PW: Someone could lose a partner.
PA: Something like that. And financially. But I think it's mainly just to, hopefully, make people feel welcome. And feel that they can just be relaxed and get involved in things.
PW: It’s like a village within a village. Because we are a group, and we know each other, if someone’s sick, there’re a lot of people who can just put up their hand and say, I’ll go and to do the shopping, or, I’ll do this for you. Whereas if they’re on their own … and even if they have a partner, that partner’s got to do everything. This is nothing organised but it just happens, because we all know each other.
PA: Some Fridays, we just put on Facebook ‘fish and chips in the park’. People just go and grab their stuff and we meet in the park.